sysinstall - arrow keys

Bob Nelson wrote:
> Why does ``/stand/sysinstall'' make use of the so-called ``arrow'' keys
> and why does the FreeBSD Handbook encourage the use of such keys for
> navigation?

Um... because they work and are self-documenting?

I guess I don't understand the question. Are there better alternatives?

> - Since one's first exposure to FreeBSD includes use of this facility,
> does this not only server to reinforce undesired peecee-centric
> habits?

How are the arrow keys "peecee-centric"? Most terminals have them. In
fact, all the terminals I've ever seen have arrow keys, even ancient
block-mode terminals that are hopefully no longer in use.

Sysinstall uses ncurses, so the arrow keys should work regardless of
terminal type.

--
Warren Block * Rapid City, South Dakota * USA
 >> Stay informed about: sysinstall - arrow keys 

On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 20:35:53 +0000, Warren Block wrote:

> Bob Nelson wrote:
>> Why does ``/stand/sysinstall'' make use of the so-called ``arrow'' keys
>> and why does the FreeBSD Handbook encourage the use of such keys for
>> navigation?
>
> Um... because they work and are self-documenting?
>
> I guess I don't understand the question. Are there better alternatives?

There are /far/ better alternatives than the non-standard ``arrow'' keys.

Among them are the efficient and portable vi-navigation keystrokes: hjkl
and, for those preferring the emacs model, there's ^N, ^P, ^F and ^B.

>> - Since one's first exposure to FreeBSD includes use of this facility,
>> does this not only server to reinforce undesired peecee-centric
>> habits?
>
> How are the arrow keys "peecee-centric"? Most terminals have them. In
> fact, all the terminals I've ever seen have arrow keys, even ancient
> block-mode terminals that are hopefully no longer in use.
>
> Sysinstall uses ncurses, so the arrow keys should work regardless of
> terminal type.

Regardless of whether a given terminal has such keys (my personal
preference, of course, is that keyboads should NOT be equipped with such
crutches), the novice to FreeBSD needs to learn at outset that use of
these so-called ``arrow'' keys is a bad habit that must be abandonded in
favor of proven, traditional Unix means of navigation.

The Unix and FreeBSD world is markedly difference from that of substandard
``operating'' systems with a peecee heritage. Those wishing to explore a
Unix-like operating system through FreeBSD should comes to terms with the
culture and philosophy of Unix as soon as possible. Adapting
``sysinstall'' (and the supporting documentation in the otherwise
excellent FreeBSD handbook) to shun the use of these crutch-keys would be
a positive step toward that goal.

--
===============================================================================
Bob Nelson -- Dallas, Texas, USA (nelsonbe@earthlink.net)
http://www.oldradio.com/archives/nelson/open-computing.html
Good engineering is just finding the right wrench to pound in the correct screw
 >> Stay informed about: sysinstall - arrow keys 

Scripsit illa aut ille »Bob Nelson« :
> On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 20:35:53 +0000, Warren Block wrote:
> > Bob Nelson wrote:
> >> Why does ``/stand/sysinstall'' make use of the so-called ``arrow'' keys
> >> and why does the FreeBSD Handbook encourage the use of such keys for
> >> navigation?
> >
> > Um... because they work and are self-documenting?
> >
> > I guess I don't understand the question. Are there better alternatives?
>
> There are /far/ better alternatives than the non-standard ``arrow'' keys.
>
> Among them are the efficient and portable vi-navigation keystrokes: hjkl
> and, for those preferring the emacs model, there's ^N, ^P, ^F and ^B.

Play Wolfenstein 3D with N, P, F and B set up as arrow keys. Then you
know what's bad with these combinations: they are badly positioned and
English-centric (next, previous, forward, backward).

hjkl, however, is OK, but why force users to use them?

BTW, ^n and ^p do work in sysinstall. jk don't because single characters
are understood as selecting an entry in the list. So you already CAN use
sysinstall without arrow keys. Isn't that enough? So even if you are a
die-hard emacs user and you thing ^n and ^p ARE arrow keys, you can use
sysinstall.
 >> Stay informed about: sysinstall - arrow keys 

This message is not archived
 >> Stay informed about: sysinstall - arrow keys 

In article , Bob Nelson wrote:
> On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 20:35:53 +0000, Warren Block wrote:
[sysinstall and arrow keys]
> There are /far/ better alternatives than the non-standard ``arrow'' keys.
>
> Among them are the efficient and portable vi-navigation keystrokes: hjkl
> and, for those preferring the emacs model, there's ^N, ^P, ^F and ^B.

Only for those that are used to ye olde yoonix style vi navigation, and
then emacs falls out: The installer is only required to support the OS it
installs, not some other os-with-a-bad-editor-built-in.

<fx acion="walks away while recanting things about ED being THE STANDARD" />


[snip]
> Regardless of whether a given terminal has such keys (my personal
> preference, of course, is that keyboads should NOT be equipped with such
> crutches), the novice to FreeBSD needs to learn at outset that use of
> these so-called ``arrow'' keys is a bad habit that must be abandonded in
> favor of proven, traditional Unix means of navigation.
[snip: slightly religious rantage]

Comrade, while your desire to improve the world is laudable as a noble
cause, this is not the way. Taking your medicine, however, is.


People, speak up, who forgot to lock up COLA last night?

--
j p d (at) d s b (dot) t u d e l f t (dot) n l .
 >> Stay informed about: sysinstall - arrow keys 

In article ,
Rudolf Polzer wrote:

% are understood as selecting an entry in the list. So you already CAN use
% sysinstall without arrow keys. Isn't that enough?

I think the OP's goal is to prevent others from using arrow keys at all.

To the OP: there are problems with the way user interfaces are commonly
designed today, and people are less productive because of the prevailing
orthodoxy, but arrow keys simply aren't part of the problem.
--

Patrick TJ McPhee
East York Canada
ptjm DeleteThis @interlog.com
 >> Stay informed about: sysinstall - arrow keys 

Patrick TJ McPhee wrote:
> In article ,
> Rudolf Polzer wrote:

> % are understood as selecting an entry in the list. So you already CAN use
> % sysinstall without arrow keys. Isn't that enough?

> I think the OP's goal is to prevent others from using arrow keys at all.

As opposed to ``prevent others from using arrow keys at all'' my
phrasing would be ``encourage others to use keystrokes found in standard
Unix applications''. The ``Single UNIX Specification'' from the Open
Group defines the keystrokes for ``vi'', for instance. Getting new users
accustomed to those keys in the earliest stages of FreeBSD would be
beneficial in the longterm.

> To the OP: there are problems with the way user interfaces are commonly
> designed today, and people are less productive because of the prevailing
> orthodoxy, but arrow keys simply aren't part of the problem.

We may differ on the opinion of ``arrow'' keys. However, I'm sure we'd
both prefer that FreeBSD, in an attempt to accommodate those with
peecee-centric backgrounds, not go down the path toward a GUI-based
installation.

--
========================================================================
Bob Nelson -- Dallas, Texas, USA (ren@nelsonbe.com)
``Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.''
 >> Stay informed about: sysinstall - arrow keys 

On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 11:45:33 -0600, Bob Nelson wrote:

> Patrick TJ McPhee wrote:
>> In article
>> ,
>> Rudolf Polzer wrote:
>
>> % are understood as selecting an entry in the list. So you already CAN
>> use % sysinstall without arrow keys. Isn't that enough?
>
>> I think the OP's goal is to prevent others from using arrow keys at
>> all.
>
> As opposed to ``prevent others from using arrow keys at all'' my
> phrasing would be ``encourage others to use keystrokes found in standard
> Unix applications''. The ``Single UNIX Specification'' from the Open
> Group defines the keystrokes for ``vi'', for instance. Getting new users
> accustomed to those keys in the earliest stages of FreeBSD would be
> beneficial in the longterm.

FreeBSD isn't about teaching people your idea of good habits, it's about
giving them the tools they desire. If I want to be saved from my own
ignorance, I'll install Windows.

>> To the OP: there are problems with the way user interfaces are commonly
>> designed today, and people are less productive because of the
>> prevailing orthodoxy, but arrow keys simply aren't part of the problem.
>
> We may differ on the opinion of ``arrow'' keys. However, I'm sure we'd
> both prefer that FreeBSD, in an attempt to accommodate those with
> peecee-centric backgrounds, not go down the path toward a GUI-based
> installation.

I wouldn't care for a GUI installation myself, but at the same time I've
no objection if one were offered for those who prefer it.

Choice is a Very Good Thing.
 >> Stay informed about: sysinstall - arrow keys 

In article , Bob Nelson writes:
> Patrick TJ McPhee wrote:
>> In article ,
>> Rudolf Polzer wrote:
>
>> % are understood as selecting an entry in the list. So you already CAN use
>> % sysinstall without arrow keys. Isn't that enough?
>
>> I think the OP's goal is to prevent others from using arrow keys at all.
>
> As opposed to ``prevent others from using arrow keys at all'' my
> phrasing would be ``encourage others to use keystrokes found in standard
> Unix applications''. The ``Single UNIX Specification'' from the Open
> Group defines the keystrokes for ``vi'', for instance. Getting new users
> accustomed to those keys in the earliest stages of FreeBSD would be
> beneficial in the longterm.
>
>> To the OP: there are problems with the way user interfaces are commonly
>> designed today, and people are less productive because of the prevailing
>> orthodoxy, but arrow keys simply aren't part of the problem.
>
> We may differ on the opinion of ``arrow'' keys. However, I'm sure we'd
> both prefer that FreeBSD, in an attempt to accommodate those with
> peecee-centric backgrounds, not go down the path toward a GUI-based
> installation.
-----------
Coersion rarely works, particularly when folks can just walk
away. It might be wise to pay attention to SuSE's YAST program which
can run as GUI or text mode, same appearance. It is quite well done.
Yes, it is curses based for text mode, and they got that nearly correct.
For installation and similar sysinstall tasks the program should
"just work" as folks expect. Right now FBSD installation is embarassing
awkward and confusing. And X11 setup is a nightmare. The major Linux
vendors have done far better, and so can FBSD.
Speaking of these things, it would be nice if the FBSD folks were
to spiff up the main web page so we can find distributions/updates/details
without tutorials on branches and CVS. A few well chosen links and pages
would do wonders without consuming much creator time.
Joe D.
Joe D.
 >> Stay informed about: sysinstall - arrow keys 

On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 11:54:54 -0600, Joe Doupnik wrote:

> Coersion rarely works, particularly when folks can just walk away.

Or fork your code.

> For installation and similar sysinstall tasks the program should "just
> work" as folks expect. Right now FBSD installation is embarassing
> awkward and confusing. And X11 setup is a nightmare. The major Linux
> vendors have done far better, and so can FBSD.

Linux is targeted at the consumer market. FreeBSD is for technical people.
We're used to ugly text interfaces and having to fiddle with things a
little to get them to work. This is the natural order of things.

Would I like sysinstall to be smoother and prettier? Of course. Am I
willing to lift a finger or pay ten cents more to make them that way?
Nope, because it's just not that important.
 >> Stay informed about: sysinstall - arrow keys 

techie wrote:
>
>> For installation and similar sysinstall tasks the program should "just
>> work" as folks expect. Right now FBSD installation is embarassing
>> awkward and confusing. And X11 setup is a nightmare.

At least this one is not true. Now FreeBSD proposes to run
xf86cfg in textmode which is extremely simple to setup, and used on a
lot of Linux distros. If you want more simple there is only Knoppix and
its purely automatic configuration.



--

Michel TALON
 >> Stay informed about: sysinstall - arrow keys